“Celebrating everything that is human is needed more than ever”: AVAWAVES’ Anna Phoebe on touring, Heartbeat, and what it takes to be a composer for film & TV

What would someone typically expect from an AVAWAVES concert?

Anna: I think the way Aisling and I play live together; Aisling has got her whole keyboard and synth set up and I’ve got violins and pedals. It’s really like a coming together of both. If you stripped it back, there are some moments where it’s just acoustic violin, acoustic piano and it’s a really intimate sound. Then it goes all the way through to more beats, that cinematic, expansive sound. We’ve got a couple of songs with vocals, but most of it is instrumental, so it allows the listener to join us in this AVAWAVES world.

The world described above by Anna Phoebe, one-half of the AVAWAVES duo alongside Aisling Brouwer, is one which everyone should want to explore. The duo’s music is something which leaves quite the impression. Listening to their latest album Heartbeat for the first time, I found myself thinking for a long time about the sounds being made, the story being crafted, and the emotions being drawn from. For all the album’s 38 minutes, the listener does indeed become an explorer. They are guided through a world which at times can be alien and frightening, yet also thrilling and full of adventure. Tracks build and swell to a point of pulse-raising explosion, before fizzling into quieter moments where the explorer is left to catch their breath. Phoebe and Brouwer manage to seamlessly blend classical and electronic sounds to craft a story which is totally unique and told in remarkably few words. It’s a testament to the power of musical storytelling.

The immersion and cinematic scope of the pair’s work is something which undoubtedly carries itself well to a live performance space. AVAWAVES are about to conclude a UK tour of Heartbeat, finishing in Bristol on June 20, having played nights in London, Brighton, and Manchester. Speaking with The Boar, I caught up with Anna and began by asking her how the tour was going so far.

The ability to then also not be in front of a computer screen and to get out on stage and share it with a live audience – it just totally changes the relationship to the music

Anna: It’s funny. I think whenever you release an album, by the time it comes out, it’s like “Oh gosh!” remembering where we were when we wrote it. It already feels like a lifetime ago because as well as releasing music as artists, we also do score-work. After lots of studio time, lots of writing together – it’s finally coming out into the world. It’s always a scary moment when you send it off to get mastered, but now it’s kind of like an enjoyable moment where you just get to go and play the music live.

I know many artists often prefer the composition process as opposed to performing live. Do you have a preference at all?

Anna: When we write together, we start the process very much together in the same room. And then, because we both produce, we sort of divide and conquer, swapping over and then coming back together at the very end of the process. That’s how we did this album, and that’s also how we write for picture, TV, and film. It’s the ability to then also not be in front of a computer screen and to get out on stage and share it with a live audience – it just totally changes the relationship to the music.

Having listened to the album, I almost imagine it coming across as a piece of theatre because of how emotional and cinematic it is. I’m really intrigued to see how it would come alive in a performance space.

Anna: Aisling’s background is writing for film and TV. My background before I wrote for film and TV is just performing – everywhere from small venues to arenas across the states. So, performing is very much in my blood. It’s not just violin and piano, but much more physical and dynamic than one would expect from two people on stage with essentially just that. This album especially, we’ve got a little more production. We had the brilliant TJ Allen, who did Hannah Peel’s album, Fir Wave, do some additional production. He’s created a much more raw sound. It’s not a linear set. It’s quite an emotional set. There’s a lot to it.

I think our sound is a lot more raw this time. It’s a lot more vulnerable

Your music is described as “being rooted in cinematic narratives” and “evoking emotional journeys in the heart and mind”. I have an idea for myself, but I’m interested to hear what this emotional journey is for you in Heartbeat.

Anna: Heartbeat is our third album together as an artist. Waves was our first album, and that was really like us coming together, talking, walking on the beach, jamming together, and seeing what came out of it. We always wanted to write for picture. Because it’s instrumental and we don’t have lyrics, we’d devise this sort of narrative or a mood or an emotion, or a scene in a film in our head and imagine what that intention is – that’s what we would write for the record. Waves was the beginning of that journey. Our second album, Chrysalis, was written pretty much in lockdown. Ash at that time had also moved to Berlin. We started writing together, but the whole album was pretty much done remotelys and locked down. It felt like quite an isolated record. I think with this third album, we’ve got the flow of writing together under our belt now. We can just get into a room and jam out. We went to Berlin, had a few days playing stuff and I think our sound is a lot more raw this time. It’s a lot more vulnerable, like in ‘Raindrop’ or ‘Nightdrive’. Some of those violin and viola parts are just improvised one take. I think we’ve got the confidence now not to try and perfect stuff. There’s a vulnerability to diving into that emotion and that intention that we’ve got behind a feeling that creates this sound world. Whatever comes out, that’s ok, that’s it, it’s done. When writing for picture, you get into the flow of having to trust your instincts working under the pressure of deadlines. This felt like a freedom to explore, explore everything we’ve learned – but just get back to that rawness of exploring emotions together.

This freedom Anna speaks of shines throughout the record. The relationship between piano and strings is one which is dynamic and thrilling, with each component responding continuously to the other. Tracks like ‘Bones’ or ‘Escape’ build and swell to compelling climaxes. Others like ‘Sleep Tight’ and ‘Raindrop’ wind the album down to a state of serenity, ‘Sleep Tight’ becoming a notable standout for its incorporation of vocals. This is all before the album concludes by bursting into life again with the techno delight ‘Crush’. Each track almost becomes its own mini soundtrack, scoring a new journey the listener-explorer is taken on.

We’ve got to the point where we can write the album that we want to play live

Do you have a particular favourite track from the album?

Anna: I think ‘Heartbeat’ feels like an invitation to the album, so I do love that track. It’s interesting in these live gigs, I would say the two polar opposites on the album, ‘Crush’ and ‘Raindrop’ have been my favourite to play. We end the set with ‘Crush’ and then, we strip everything away and we end totally acoustically with ‘Raindrop’. There’s something really powerful going from like a sound thrash dynamic to a rawness. So, I think to answer your question, I would say it probably depends on what mood I’m in. But I quite like the stream of going from ‘Crush’ to ‘Raindrop’. Maybe my enjoyment is the gap in between them.

I love how the album comes to a moment of peace and stasis, only for it to come alive again with ‘Crush’ right at the end when you’re least expecting it. You mentioned making the album in Berlin and with ‘Crush’ I feel as if you’re transported to a Berlin techno club.

Anna: I think because it’s our third album as well, we’ve stopped worrying about trying to fit into a certain genre, or whether people are going to like it. We’ve got to the point where we can write the album that we want to play live. I think we’ve got rid of the exterior voices which make us feel judged – fortunately, we’ve got an amazing label where creative freedom is definitely the name of the game. I think it was our own inner voices of trying to fit into a certain genre which we let go of for this album.

That freedom is definitely evident in the uniqueness of the record. Has anyone in particular inspired you musically?

Anna: We both love quite a wide variety of genres in music. On the more electronic side, you’d have John Hopkins, Marie Davidson or Ella Minus or Avon Emerson. Then, on the acoustic side, I love jazz. One of my favourite albums is the Pharoah Sanders and Floating Points album with LSO, Promises. It’s an amazing album, essentially one track that’s jazz, but classical with a bit of electronics. Any artist who is just following a creative instinct without being too prescribed – that excites me.

We should be living in a country where every single child has access to free music lessons and where music is more valued in schools

I read that both Aisling and you are from very musical families. Did growing up in these musical environments shape the type of art you want to produce?

Anna: Yeah, I think so. My parents, they were in a band together, actually when they were pregnant with me. My mum was a social worker for children and families and my dad is a professor on the Holocaust – so the most serious, despairing jobs you could probably have. But there was always music playing in the house. My mum also plays the violin and I think I always grew up seeing how playing music and listening to music is a cathartic way to balance you holistically. It was never expected that I would ever go into music, I actually studied politics. I think it was a really healthy way to see how music helps you not only academically, but also holistically and mentally. I think I had a really healthy relationship with playing music and listening to music. I’m really passionate about music in schools. I come from a privileged background, my parents could afford lessons for me and I was encouraged to play music. We should be living in a country where every single child has access to free music lessons and where music is more valued in schools. Whether you go on to be a professional musician or not, it’s irrelevant. I think it brings so much else to your life and as a lifelong thing. That’s what I learned through seeing my mum. Despite having a very stressful job, she’d always have orchestra or be playing in chamber groups and exploring music in an extracurricular way. That’s how I grew up appreciating music.

I think that’s such an important message in a society where the arts and music are increasingly undervalued. In AVAWAVES, you’re on the violin and Aisling is on the piano. Do you play any other instruments at all? If you could learn another one, what instrument would you choose?

Anna: This is my piano behind me.

Wow, it’s gorgeous.

Anna: I’ve got my guitars, whole racks of effects pedals. I’ve played keyboards and strings on tour in the past. Growing up, I think I was kind of annoyed. Playing the violin, deep down, I always wanted to be a guitarist. I think in my head I thought it was cooler. I wish I could play the guitar better, but I’m happy with my lot!

I often feel like people who grew up learning really classical instruments often turn to the most rock and roll instruments as they get older.

Anna: Guitarist trapped in a violinist’s body. I think in a weird way, it’s led me to experiment with the sound of the violin a lot more. I think I’m always trying to make it not sound like a violin. I appreciate that the violin is very close to a human voice, and that emotional connection you can get with the sound of a violin – I mean you can get it with a guitar, I don’t want guitarists to hate me. The community of guitarists is amazing. They’ll sit for like a day on the gauge of their strings. I wish the violinist community would chat more about things like that.

With AVAWAVES, each track is a collaboration

That emotional sound of the violin is so significant in all your albums. I’m interested to learn more about your creative process. You work in a creative duo alongside Aisling, how do you both work off each other when you’re composing?

Anna: This December, we would have met, like, 10 years ago. We’ve been playing music together for a long time. I think now, it’s almost like putting on a comfy pair of jeans that have been like moulded to your body – they just sort of fit. You can predict each other. When we’re playing music, there’s a really intuitive way that Aisling’s chords might go which informs a certain way I’m going to play a melody. There’s like an AVAWAVES filter, to the point where I know her so well now, that even if we’ve started writing something together and then I’m layering it up or producing stuff or vice versa – I can hear what the AVAWAVES filter is. It’s my response and her response hearing each other in our heads. I think when you’ve been working with someone for so long, you get that third-person filter. It’s very intuitive, it’s like its own sort of organism. For our creative process, we usually start by jamming loads of ideas. We just hit record, set up two inputs and just go through. We’re like “Ok what about this colour? What about this feeling?” Just off the back of a few words, we’ll play what that emotion is. Then, we’ll have a massive session of lots of ideas, most of which get discarded with some being taken forward. Some are pretty much first take. The first track we ever wrote was ‘Waves’, the title track of our first album. That was written in one take. Then sometimes it’s more processed, like ‘Crush’ and we’re playing around with additional elements, synth and layer, and then stripping it back. But it always starts with us two in a room together.

I find it really admirable that two people can bounce off each other in such a creative and productive way, to the point where, as you say, it almost creates a life force of its own.

Anna: Yeah, exactly. I think that because collaboration can happen in so many different ways. With AVAWAVES, each track is a collaboration. It’s pretty 50-50 down everything. Apart from the fact that she does the pianos and I do the strings, she does most of the synths, but we’re both producing it.

Writing for our album, it’s just the two of us. Whereas in TV, you have meetings and spotting sessions where you go through every single second of every cue of music that happens in an episode

Alongside producing music as an artist, Anna and Aisling also compose soundtracks for film and TV. Recently they’ve been working on the music for The Buccaneers on Apple TV+, series two of which was released on June 18.

How does composing music for a series compare with composing music for an album?

Anna: Sometimes when you’re writing for TV or film, you come on board as a composer but they want you to do something else. We’re so lucky that the sound world we create for The Buccaneers is very similar to the one we create for AVAWAVES. I think that’s why the process of writing the album felt like time off. We were in such a great roll, we had done two series of The Buccaneers and the timelines when you’re working for TV is so intense. For series one, we didn’t have an assistant. We did everything ourselves. You’re doing months of 18-hour days; there’s no room for anything else in your life, you’re just in that Buccaneer’s world. For this second series, we already had the palette in mind. We already knew what the sound world for The Buccaneers was, so it was about taking themes and then developing them as the characters develop and as the storylines develop. It felt like we kind of knew what we were doing and we knew what the world was and it was about progressing it. It’s like an eight-month process and there are lots of voices. Writing for our album, it’s just the two of us. Whereas in TV, you have meetings and spotting sessions where you go through every single second of every cue of music that happens in an episode. You’ve got music supervisors, directors, producers, the LA Apple TV people, the UK Apple TV people, orchestrators, and an ensemble – a massive team of people. Every single bit of music will get critiqued and then you do revisions. You might do 12 revisions of something and then go back to idea two. You’re working on quite a big, commercial scale. Every minute detail is thought about. That’s very different from doing an artist album.

I feel like the process of writing for a soundtrack is one which is relatively unknown to the average music fan. It’s interesting to hear about all these different voices present in the room and the pressure which must inevitably come from that.

Anna: You’re coming with yourself, you know. The reason we got it is because the head of music at Apple in LA was an AVAWAVES fan. That’s how we got to pitch for it. Once we got the job, your ego is out of the door. Whereas with an artist project, your ego is front and centre. You’re thinking about what do I feel? What do I want to write? What do I want to share? What’s cathartic for me? How do I want to feel when I perform live? It’s so egotistical, isn’t it? Working for film and TV, there is no room for that. You have to be able to completely put that aside. You have to be able to take criticism and feedback. When time is tight, you can’t fight for something just because you think it works. If the other people, the director or producer, say it’s not right – you don’t question it. You just start again. I love that thrill though, because in that arena, it’s so cutthroat in a way. I enjoy that because you get such critical feedback. It’s all for the good of the show. Everyone wants the episode to be as good as it can be. You trust the process and trust the team. That’s quite an exciting thing.

Art is what makes us human, otherwise, we’re just robots

What would your message be to any aspiring young musicians looking to make music for soundtracks or who are looking to start composing and producing their own work for the first time?

Anna: For soundtracks, find up-and-coming short films and just dive into working with people essentially for free. Short films, you know, they’re usually small budget. I would just experiment and experiment! Find what your sound is. You have to be proficient technically, but you also need to have your own sound. Why would someone pick you? For that, you have to be disciplined, you have to be egoless and you have to work well as a team. Just being able to write good music is only a tiny fraction of being a successful composer. As an artist, I think we’re living in an age where AI is just butchering the creative industry. The tech bros are pocketing so much money and I think now more than ever, it’s so important that we have human artists and creative endeavours. We need to make meaningful work. Not just adding to the noise of stuff, not being pressured with output and social media, but just actually doing good work and making connections. Connecting with yourself or other people through your work – it’s so important. Celebrating everything that is human is needed more than ever. Never let anyone tell you that it’s not of value or it’s not viable. Art is what makes us human, otherwise, we’re just robots.

The AVAWAVES world is one which I encourage everyone to explore. Anna and Aisling are a duo who are producing bold, innovative music which all storytellers may look to for inspiration as to how to convey emotion, picture, and feeling. Their creativity, passion, and zest for what they do is evident in everything they produce, be it score-work or personal releases. In a world which is increasingly robotic, the AVAWAVES world perhaps presents itself as the antithesis. It’s human, raw and I can’t wait to explore it further.

AVAWAVES perform their final tour date at Rough Trade Bristol on June 20 with tickets available on their website. The Buccaneers series one and two are available to watch on Apple TV+.